Who Are The “Holy People” Of Daniel 12: 7?

  In the present endtime controversy, there are a large number of views regarding the “Great Tribulation.”  Daniel 12 seems to be a key pivot on which much of the debate (at least insofar as the Old Testament ties in with Matthew 24) seems to turn.  In Daniel 12: 7, Daniel heard the man clothed in linen say to one of the men by the bank of the river Hiddekel, that “when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”  OK.  The first question is, who is “he?”  Then we ask, who are the “holy people?”

   Unless we answer these two questions properly, we’ll be far at sea when it comes to getting at the timing of the Great Tribulation.  I think it’s safe to say that the “he” is Antichrist, for the context involves the 1,290 days — or last half of Daniel’s 70th week, during which the beast (i.e., Antichrist) shall have power (see Rev. 13: 5).  If this position is correct, then the “holy people” can be none other than the saints which are persecuted by Antichrist during the tribulation.

  Now, Preterists would tell us that the Great Tribulation happened in A.D. 67-70, and that the “holy people” were the Jews, which were “scattered” when the temple was destroyed.  But there are several difficulties in this view.  First, everyone knows that the Jews retained their national existence long after A.D. 70.  They even had enough “power” to foment another major rebellion under Bar-Cochebas in A.D. 135.  So I cannot see in what sense their power was scattered in A.D. 70. 

   It also occurs to me that whatever power the Jews possessed had long been forfeited to Rome.  Israel was subject to Roman rule when the temple was destroyed; and so in order to give Daniel 12 an A.D. 70 application, qualifications must be placed on the meaning of the word “power;” and this is unfeasible.

  However, there is a graver concern.  It is blatantly unscriptural to call the apostate and rebellious Jews of the first century the “holy people.”  This, I think, is the crux of the whole issue.  Preterists fail to see the Dispensational change which occurred on the Day of Pentecost. 

   When the church was conceived on Pentecost, the earthly Israel was made of none effect, and the heavenly came into play.  No longer would circumcision according to the flesh, or the keeping of the letter of the law, avail.  As Jesus Christ told the Jews: “It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6: 63). This looked forward to the coming Dispensational change, which took place in A.D. 30.

   To say that the natural Jews who remained uncircumcised in heart and unrenewed by the power of the Holy Spirit were the “holy people” is to adopt a curious twist of reasoning which contradicts the very words of our Savior.  If the Preterist thesis is correct, then Christ’s words are not true, and “the flesh profiteth something.” 

  Far from being the case, though, we mustn’t forget that after A.D. 30 it could be truly said that: “He is not a Jew which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God” (Romans 2: 22-23).

  Now, mark well that I am not endorsing any kind of “Replacement Theology.”  What I am saying is that Israel has two aspects.  There is the natural, which is as the dust of the earth (Genesis 13: 16); and the spiritual, which is as the stars of heaven (Genesis 15: 5).  During the Mosaic economy the natural had predominance — but not to the exclusion of the spiritual.  So in this present Dispensation, the spiritual has predominance — but not to the exclusion of the natural (see Romans 11: 1-12). 

  The promises of future blessing were made to Abraham, who (loosely speaking) was a “spiritual Jew,” but also a “natural Jew.”  He was not only circumcised in the flesh, but also in the inward man.  Now, to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.  Christ is the Seed of Abraham (Gal. 3: 16), Who unifies the two aspects of Israel. 

   Therefore, the promises will be fulfilled when the Heir returns, and the two seedlines of Israel — both natural and spiritual — converge once more.  This is not Replacement Theology, but an affirmation that all of God’s promises will be fulfilled to the letter.  What we have, then, in this Dispensation is a converse of what took place during the Mosaic Dispensation.  We have an enforcement of spiritual principles and regulations, which correspond to the natural things of the Mosaic economy.

  The Dispensational change that took place on the Day of Pentecost mustn’t be overlooked.  Prior to the resurrection and ascension of Christ it could truly be said that the natural Jews were the “holy people.”  However, when the promise of the Holy Spirit was given from above, and the apostles sent forth to preach the glad tidings of God’s grace, God’s principles of administration changed.  No longer were the natural Jews reckoned as “holy people.”  The only “holy people” that God recognizes during this Dispensation are those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ, and washed in the spiritual waters of regeneration (Titus 3: 5). 

  This was the very principle that obtained during the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70; and so it is incorrect to say that the rebellious (and in many cases apostate) Jews were the “holy people” whose power was scattered.  I believe that the “holy people” will constitute Israel — but Israel during the last 7 years of the age, after the 144,000 saved Israelites are presented to God as a first-fruits offering of national repentance.  Then will the signs and miracles re-commence, and the purging (i.e., refinement) of the nation be effected during that period of Great Tribulation. 

   Antichrist will scatter the power of the holy people when he slays the two witnesses in the middle of the Daniel’s 70th week (Rev. 11: 7), and then wars against the saints during the remaining 3 1/2 years of the age.  This will be the true fulfillment of Daniel 12: 7.  And in connection with this “time of trouble,” there will be a resurrection of many from the dust of the ground (Dan. 12: 1-2). 

   Now, it is clear that none of these things happened in A.D. 67-70.  There is no evidence that 144,000 Israelites were saved and sealed before the investment of Jerusalem.  Nor did the Emperor Nero (whom Preterists label the Antichrist) function until the temple was destroyed [Note: he actually committed suicide in A.D. 68].  Neither was there a resurrection; and to say that there was is to tamper with the Sacred text. 

   No, friends.  The Preterist interpretation of Daniel 12 certainly doesn’t fit the bill. But only recognize the “he” of Dan. 12: 7 as Antichrist, and the scattering of the holy people as the persecution of the saints during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, and all the facts will harmonize.

26 Comments Add yours

  1. JOHN V!! says:

    Brian,

    I must agree with you concerning your explanation of who constitutes God’s holy people in (Dan.12). These people (Dan.12) I believe is that same people who consist of that holy nation of (1 Pet.2:9). These are those of all nations (Saints) not just the Jewish nation, whose faith is centered in Jesus Christ. The he in (Dan.12) I also believe is speaking about the same he discussed earlier in (Dan.11:41,42,43,44,and 45) that antichrist. I believe Scripture holds a labyrinth form of delineations not only in word but descriptive scenes made manifest. Daniel’s visions are one of many examples of such hidden events; not made known as yet, but revealed as a thing shown. Nevertheless, I believe that without the discerning observation of God’s Word, the slightest nuance within its format changes the whole perspective of that which is and always was purposed to be conveyed. In other words I believe Scripture holds more than one lineage of time in its meaning. In other words one era of time might symbolize something, while another meaning applies for another generation and remains true for that time sequence. That is why God’s word shall never pass away. It is germane already, for all seasons and all times encompasses its meaning. That is why (Dan.7:4-11) is revealing four major kingdoms that has or shall exist in lineage history. Nevertheless, at the same time these verses speak also of another last four Kingdoms of power that will be present after the last days and at the start of the latter days to the end of years. Daniel understood this and could discern more than one meaning of God’s direction. That is why in (Dan.11:5)the reader is transferred from a happening, to a future event in (Dan.11:6) end of years. This transport consist of a dominion (millennium),a dominion (millennium) and a great (greater part) of a dominion (537yrs) from Daniel’s prophecy, (Dan.11:5).Therefore, that two and one half millenniums would place us in these times! For in that kingdom of verse (6) there is no king of the south as verse (5) referred to, but now there is instead a king of the north. Therefore, nothing in verse(6)is in common with the previous verse(5); not even its time reference. For now from verse (5) to verse (6) we skip to the end of years over 2500 yrs later. I will not discuss details of further interpretations. These statements are only my opinions. However, I will state this much. The daughter of the south (v.6) is in reference to China and the king of the north refers to Russia for the end years. For although they (China and Russia) have had their contentions over the years their ideologies have been similar. For communist China is of that Marx’s belief system and was winged under that tutelage from her birth; they were joined together (China and Russia, 1949) as the verse states both through ideologies and their geographical borders connect together(Dan.11:6). This is the meaning of the words in (v.6) they, Russia, that brought her, China, to that belief, communism, and he, Russia, that begot her, that governmental ideology of China, and he, Russia, that strengthened her, both financially and militarily in the past, in these times (Dan.11:6). Now this verse is dealing with a happening at a certain time sequence, and the time is shortly after Russia destroys the World Power of nations. China recognizes two very basic points in the overall magnitude of this unbelievable event. First, she recognizes that now there is only two major super powers on earth and she is one of them. Second, she also recognizes that Russia has somewhat depleted its strength in its attack against that nation of power and has spread out its forces to retain that conquered lands occupancy. China therefore seeks an equal partnership of the power and the wealth Russia aquired against that conquered nation. China’s strategy was a bluff in the form of an intimidation, but nonetheless, it was worth a shot. Russia refuses the request or any such agreement and even severs, gives up,(v.6) any further dealings with China because of the intimidation tactics. Therefore, China at that time does not retain the high position she sought, but Russia also is somewhat intimidated by China’s tactics and realizes a powerful force is upon its border, thus limiting Russia’s power. Therefore, neither one held the full arm of the power (Dan.11:6) as the verse states.
    Im sorry but I cannot agree that the Two Witnesses come forth the first part of tribulations. I believe scripture clearly shows they come forth the last half of the tribulations. One reason I believe this, is because I see (Rev.12:10) the kingdom of our God (Most High) and the power of his Christ (Jesus) as different than (Rev.11:15) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (Jesus) and his Christ (anointed one). Besides I believe that the two witnesses are the two wings in (Rev.12:14), and it is the two witnesses (Rev.12:6) who feeds the woman 1260 days, these events happen the last half of the tribulation period. These two witnesses are seen in (Rev.12) as well as (Rev.11). Much of the book of Revelation does not set in chronological order. Yet, these two offices of these two prophets (office not gender) are two in the Most High who are called unto a perfect comminsion! Their highest calling is to care for God’s children. Then afterwards show forth the Lords displeasure toward an evil and sinful mankind.

  2. Brian,

    I liked your article. I’m still having trouble seeing the term “holy people” as Jew and Gentile believers. Namely because the passage mentioned in Daniel 12 (also Dan. 8:24) would not have been understood by Jews in the day it was written. To them, they were the “holy people”. They wouldn’t have known about a new dispensation where Gentiles would be grafted into their promise.

    Secondly, the language used in the NKJV is of their power being “completely shattered”. The power of the Jewish state is their political, economic, and military power; the “power” of a believer is not of the political nature but of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:8; Rom 15:13; Eph 3:16). How then can the power of the believer be completely shattered?

    Thirdly, the term “holy people” is also found in Isaiah 62:12 “And they shall call them The Holy People, The Redeemed of the LORD; And you shall be called Sought Out, A City Not Forsaken.” This passage speaks of the turning of national Israel to salvation. The actual term “holy people” doesn’t appear directly in the NT although there may be allusions. This also brings up the point how could anyone before the blood of Christ be considered holy if the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin? Yet, God Israel his “holy people” in Deut 7:6, 14:2, 14:21.

    Fourthly, while believers in the book of Revelation are described as being “overcome” by Antichrist (Rev. 13); they are also described as having “victory” over Antichrist (Rev 15:2); “overcoming” AC by the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 12:11);

    Could it be that Israel is called “holy” not by action but by covenant foreknowledge?

  3. JOHN V!! says:

    Brian,

    First, I’m not exactly grasping the point that Isaac was seeking to make concerning the Jews not understanding the passage of (Dan.12;8). It seems to me that the point of any prophecy in God’s Word, and I believe that a prophetic message was the purpose of (Dan:12;8) is not always comprehended or meant to be understood by most. If prophecy could have been understood by the Jewish populous; then when the Christ appeared in his time the Jews would have received him, through the comprehension of prophecy, not sought his death. Yet, the prophecy was fulfilled concerning the Christ and will be fulfilled concerning the holy people regardless as to whether the Jews comprehended (understood) it or not! So comprehending or not comprehending the meaning, by the Jews, of the term holy people, does not exclude its hidden meaning.

    Secondly, scattering the holy people and shattering the nation in which they reside is not a contradiction; both effects would produce the same outcome. Also I believe that God’s Word throughout Scripture is pointing out that these holy people being discussed in (Dan.12) are far less dedicated to righteousness before the shattering of their nation in the latter years(Deut.32:16-37). However, after that destruction comes is when holiness instantly becomes the top priority among these people (remnant) that remain! Then is when that holy people are scattered.

    Thirdly, I do not believe that God’s Word in (Isa.62:12) is referring to national Israel or the salvation of the Jewish people at that time. I believe that salvation comes forth later when the deliverer comes out of Sion (Rom.11:26). I further believe that sion, is that same sion (Zion) that is being discussed in (Isa.62:1,11).This is not Israel the nation, but the nation who is the daughter of Zion (Isa.62:11).Israel is always, always, always referred to as a son (male)(Exod.4:22) never a daughter (female) this is God’s Word. If ever Israel is referred to as a she, her or of the female gender in Scripture it’s speaking of another nation, a hidden people (Ps.83:3). God’s Word never displays Israel as a daughter, women or a female, when he has called Israel his son, his first born! So Israel is depicted as a male (nation) first born (Exod.4:22). So in like manner one (son) also is a first born of that same name spiritualy (Isa.41:8-11), even before the the stars appeared was he (created) who is the son of his king, and who is the same king (Jesus) of that nation (Israel). So from that male (Israel) comes the Jews, so from the daughter of Sion (Zion) comes the deliverer (Rom.11:26) (2 Esdras.13)(Isa.49:5-6)! This verse (6. in Isa.49) is speaking of that same deliverer in (Rom.11:26). Notice that man being addressed in (Isa.49:6) did not have the power of salvation; salvation was the possession of the one speaking through Isaiah’s words of prophecy. THAT THOU MAYEST BE (MY) SALVATION (verse.6). Only JESUS CHRIST possess the power of salvation; for he alone paid the price for that right! Therefore, regardless of the teachings of men, the Scriptures clearly reveal that that deliverer in (Rom. and Isa.)is one and the same man and neither is symbolic of JESUS THE CHRIST! No more so than that servant the branch in (Zech.3:8)is symbolic of the Lord of Glory. Jesus is never the branch but always the vine (John.15:5)!

    Fourthly, I do not believe that (Rev. 13) has any reference to the antichrist or to an individual at all. I believe (Rev.13) speaks of a system and its administrations from which the antichrist shall arise but the beast is not that antichrist. The beast is communism, and the heads are different time linages within that system. the war it makes with the Saints is its atheist belief system (Rev.13:7). It is estimated Over 100,000,000
    Christians were executed under communist China alone since 1949 and who knows how many in Russia since 1917. This is making war with the Saints and even today they are crying out to their God how long O Lord before you avenge our blood (Rev.6:10)? The head wound of the beast is not a man but the death of communism in Russia, but it shall return (be healed)(Rev.13:3). Men quote scripture and then add the word antichrist to certain verses when nowhere in the verse does that word appear. We must always be cautious in interpreting God’s Word and not just quoting someones concept of others beliefs.

  4. isaac says:

    John V,

    All I was stating was the disconnect between the Jewish believers of Daniel’s day and the text of Daniel 12 if it did in fact refer to those under the New Covenant.

    As far as Isaiah 62 – that’s a long one which I don’t have time for right now : )

    Revelation 13 is a system? Why does it refer to the “beast” as “he” or “him” more than 30 times?

  5. Hi folks,

    Sorry for the delay in responding. This is the busiest time of the month for me. At any rate, I see what Isaac is saying. I believe the holy people are the saints which will be living in the Dispensation of Judgment. They are connected with the two witnesses, who will be given power (Rev. 11: 3) to work miracles. The power is broken in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, when Antichrist is given to persecute the saints (Rev. 13: 5). He starts by killing the two witnesses (Rev. 11: 7).

    So, in short, I understand the “shattering of the holy people” to be synchronous with the Great Tribulation. This matter seems to be clinched in Daniel 12: 7, where the same time-period (42 months/1,260 days) is mentioned in connection with the “scattering of the holy people.”

    As for the actual identity of the “beast,” I think it represents a system as well as an individual. Just like Christ represents Christianity — so the beast represents Anti-Christianity. However, I find John’s view interesting. It is probable that his power will be largely communistic in nature. I wouldn’t rule that out.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  6. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    Thank-you for your explanation concerning the Jewish believer in Daniel’s day. I see what you are saying now.

    The explanation of the other two subject matters were not as convincing. I have never encountered a beast that wasn’t one of the two genders; a him, he or a her or she. A male lion, dragon, dog, cat etc. is as easily referred to as a he, as is a male human. This same beast (Rev.13) in (Rev.17) is made up of seven kings and seven mountains, has seven heads and a woman sits upon him (seeking to control the beast). That would indeed be a very strange sight and would resemble foolishness if it was seeking to depict a man. Foolishness is the devil’s craft but God induces sound minds and profound explanations. If God’s Word seeks to depict an individual or entity as a beast his Word comes forth and declares it so; such as the devil walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom HE may devour (1 Pet.5:8). God Bless.

    At the end of the seven kings, (Rev.17:10-11) then, yes, an individual is identified as the eighth. He is like the beast he heads (Rev.17:8;17:11). He was of that communist system, then he wasn’t, then he shall be again; that was, and is not, and yet is (Rev.17:8).

  7. JOHN V!! says:

    Brian,

    I believe the Word of God is revealing that the two witnesses are killed near the end of the great tribulation period. I believe the word “they” in (Rev.12:6) “they” should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days; represents the same “they” as “they” shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in (Rev.11:3). And the same “they” as (Rev.11:6) as often as “they” will. If this is so, then the Scriptures are revealing that the two witnessess (they) are with the woman in the wilderness (Rev.12:6) at the time of the great tribulation period, the last half of that tribulation time consisting of the full 42 mos. or one thousand two hundred days or a time, and times, and half a time where she shall be nourished, fed (Rev.12:14)(12:6).

    I believe that the Lord sought to reveal this truth in his word, but men misinterpreted its meaning. In (Matt.11:11) Jesus seeks to reveal the times and the meaning of those two prophets yet to come. Jesus declares of John the Baptist that none born of women has come forth greater, nevertheless, he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Now I will quote from one of my books:

    ” Jesus was making a profound statement in the declaration of this verse, knowing that John was Elijah (Matt.17:12-13). Jesus also knew John/Elijah had came to fulfill his mission and to fulfill God’s Word that all men must once die. Yet, there was still one left in the heavenly realm that was least in the kingdom of heaven. He (Enoch) was least, because he still remained in flesh, and was not of the spiritual element. Enoch was the least of them all (spirits) in heaven (kingdom of heaven) knowing flesh is far inferior to spirit. This is the meaning of the passage stating he (Enoch) that is least in the kingdom of heaven, is greater than John (Elijah)! Then in (Luke.7:28) Jesus states there is no greater prophet who was born of women than John, but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he (John/Elijah). These verses state that he (Enoch) will be the greatest in the kingdom of God, as well as the Kingdom of heaven (Matt.11:11) (Luke.7:28).
    The kingdom of God are those subjects of the King (Jesus) and serve him on earth. Therefore, least in this gist of the kingdom of God means, the one at the end or last in the kingdom of God, the prince, the witness, Enoch (Rev.11:9). In other words, just before the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of our Lord (Jesus) and his Christ (anointed one)(Rev.11:15)(Rev.10:7)( Isa.45:1).”

    Therefore, a mystery is here solved through the words of Jesus. If the last witness in the kingdom is Enoch and he is referred to as a (he) (Matt.11:11)(Luke.7:28) then the other witness is not another he for they both die at the same moment, so (Matt.11) would have to read “they” if both were male,(he). Therefore, that other witness must be a she. This lines up with God’s format, for if God started the age with a male and a female, so shall the age end in like manner. This is why the word Prophets in (Rev.11) is not after the gender of a person but in the Hebrew vernacular, prophets in this chapter means the office of a prophet or prophetess. Therefore, two in the beginning, became one flesh and fell. So shall two at the end, become one spirit and rise.
    The meaning of that Elijah to come (Mal.4:5) means that the spirit of Enoch is of that same spirit of Elijah for both ascended up and both have descended down in like manner. So the Elijah men wait for has come and the one they see not is Enoch. Therefore, the ass represents Elijah/John, ushering in the Lord of Glory first coming and the colt Enoch/hidden one, ushering in the Lord’s Second coming , (the colt and its age, because of the distance of time from the first happening to the second)(Matt.21:2)! If these things be true then its not the signs we should be looking for but the witness. For in his presence is the revealing of the times. God Bless.

  8. John V,

    Agreed that the term “he” is used in conjunction with metaphorical animals. The passage you quoted in 1 Peter 5:8 ties the “he” of the lion directly to Satan. The Lion is a metaphor that represents the nature of the being (Satan) described. Likewise, the four beasts in Daniel 7 are four kings representing their kingdoms (Dan. 7:17). Therefore, the Revelation 13 beasts is not a system that is ambiguously controlled by itself, but rather tied to a man, Antichrist, who embodies both the nature and character of a “beast”. He is OF the 7 other kingdoms (Rev. 17:11), meaning operating in the same demonic lust for power, blood, and conquest.

    In response to Revelation 17:8 I believe John is describing both Antichrist spirit AND man. The beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit I believe “possesses” the man Antichrist.

    What makes communism distinct from Islam? And how can you say that the Antichrist system is MORE communist than Islamic? Wouldn’t it make more sense that Babylon, the Mother of Harlots is just that? – the seed of all false religion?

    Brian,

    What is your power as a Gentile believer? …assuming that you aren’t Jewish ; )

  9. JOHN V!! says:

    Brian,

    Sorry, I meant to say in the Greek vernacular, not the Hebrew, in discribing the meaning of the word prophets (Rev.11:10).

    Isaac,

    I disagree, It’s the beast that controls the man not the man that controls the beast. I believe that is exactly what the beast represents; a metaphor depicting communismn in Russia since its inception in 1917 through its demise in 1992. I further believe that its seven heads represents the major rulers, adminstrations, during the course of those seven decades; though its sixth ruler (Chernenko)was old and sickly and did not possess the full power of the kingdom according to God’s Word. The seventh was actually the sixth. Thus the meaning of five are fallen and one is and the other is not yet come (Rev.17:10). Remember, these seven kings and that eighth ruler only represents rulers of that beast (communist system) so the present ruler in Russia is excluding form the seven or the eighth until communism therein is revived. I also believe that the one called the eighth in (Rev.17:11) represents the last ruler that brings forth the revision of that atheistic communist belief system after its demise, death, deadly head wound (Rev.13:3) in (1992). I do not believe that that eighth is symbolic of that antichrist, for he (AC) will not be revealed before his time, but this eighth is a son of perdition like was Judas. I no more believe that the woman that sits on the beast represents Babylon, an Islamic representation, or a barrel of monkeys! The word BABYLON in (Rev.17) I believe is used here in God’s Word to describe the position that woman holds in the latter days. The word BABYLON (Capital letters) in the eyes of God here represents the World Power of nations (Rev.17:15) in the latter days. This has nothing to do with reviving Babylon or the Islamic people to World dominance or religion, false or otherwise; regardless of what the interpreted teachings profess. The dipiction here is meant to represent a harlot woman who like all harlots, yet, this one is the Mother of all Harlots sells herself to the highest bidder and aborts her children (in this case by the millions). So the woman that contols, holds, sits upon the beast from destroy everything and every nation in its path, is the World Power of nations and a Harlot of Harlots in God’s eyes. Only the World Power has, had and did control the Soviet Union’s (communist) mind set of World domination for all the years it ruled as a super power! The (little lettering) of the word Babylon in (chapter 18 of Rev.) means the world power of cities. BABYLON the nation (Rev.17) and Babylon that city (Rev.18) are contiguous to one another. Therefore, in the end the beast will devour and burn that World Power nation and her world power great city (Rev.17:16)(Rev.18). Nevertheless, I believe men will continue to believe what they have been taught even though the evidence has been before their eyes for many decades. I truly believe we now have but a little time left before this great tragedy manifest the full reality of these prophetic events! This will truly be the commencement of Jacob’s Trouble and the use of nuclear weapons by that final ruler of that beast, and the deployment of the Lord’s wrath (Rev.6:17) upon a now wicked nation. So a father sees his daughter a lovely creature. A son a loving mother. A client a harlot, but to God a nation shining forth as the sun and a crown upon the head. Nevertheless, all are one and the same woman in her different time lineages.

  10. isaac says:

    John V,

    Judas was a man, Nebuchanezzar was a man, Cyrus was a man, Alexander was a man…you said yourself that the 7 heads of the beast were “men” in communist Soviet Union. Why can’t the eighth be a “man”. Your interpretation would have little to no value to a believer living the first century.

    The little horn of Daniel 7 is depicted as both empire and man (ergo eyes and a mouth speaking pompous words) as are all the “beasts” mentioned in Daniel 7. The little horn is congruous with the beast of Revelation 13.

    There are no grounds to make a distinction between Babylon used in chapter 17 and 18 solely because of capitalization. This has to do with the English translation of the bible not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Chapters 17 and 18 are written back to back and meant to be understood as congruous entities. To imply otherwise is to say that Holy Spirit will change subjects without changing words, this in my opinion is absurd.

    Why in your theory does Communism destroy the Harlot (world power) instead of usurping the world power? Who are the ten kings (horns) on the beast head and why do they burn her with fire?

  11. Hi Isaac,

    Gentile Christians have no power to speak of now. But during the first half of the 70th week, signs and miracles will re-commence under the ministry of the two witnesses. So it’s very possible that the Gentiles will partake of spiritual apostolic gifts — just like they did during the 1st century.

    At any rate, these are really interesting posts. I’m not sure about the 7 heads of the beast. However, I tend to think 6 of the heads are emperors of Rome, and that the seventh is the “prince that shall come” (Dan. 9: 26). He’ll arise in the first half of the 70th week, receive his death stroke sometime later, and then be raised as the 8th (Rev. 17: 11) when he comes from the bottomless pit. He’ll persecute the saints for 1,260 days. However, after 10 days of his reign there will be a rapture of the overcomers. This is the catching up of the manchild (Rev. 12: 5). I believe this is also the “king’s mowings” mentioned in Amos 7: 1. The “grasshoppers” are the armies of Antichrist who will invade Jerusalem during the last half of the 70th week, while he persecutes the saints.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  12. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    If you would correctly observe my statements you would see I never said the eighth was not a man, an individual. As a matter of fact I even stated that the eighth was an individual in the last few sentences dated March 31. What I did say is I do not believe that that individual is that antichrist that interpreters believe he is in (Dan.7). Isaac, there are many characters that are congruous to an antichrist in God’s Word and in this world. That does not mean everyone of them are the antichrist; for even as God’s Word states there are many antichrists in the world. If you have noticed most groups and their leaders that come forth out of an atheistic system seems pompous and egotistical, yet this does not mean they are necessarily the one being spoken about in (Dan.7). I did not base my belief on whether a word is capitalized or not. Although I believe God’s whole Word is inspired whether man sometimes misprints its meaning. God is big enough to relay even misprinted meanings to his interpreted advandage. As much as the Word shows that woman BABYLON is an entity that rules over PEOPLES, AND MULTITUDES, AND NATIONS, AND TONGUES (Rev.17:15). Anyone with a half a brain would be cognizant of the fact that this must be in reference to THE World Power of NATIONS. That ruler of the beast does usurp that conguered nation, but it feared that world power so greatly that it used the option to nuke her before she could unlesh her might. Afterwards, that beast comes to occupy, usurp that nation for (42mos.) a nation naked, desolate, her flesh devoured and burned with fire. This is the aftermath of a nation’s nuclear destruction. The ten nations are those nations that comes with the beast, for the beast feared the world power and sought the help of others. These nations are spoken of in (Ezek.38). For Gog (Russia) goes UP to destroy that land (Ezek.38:11,16;39:2). The bear (Russia) goes UP (raised UP on its side and devours much flesh)(Dan.7:5) and had three rips in its mouth (3 and one half yrs, 42mos.) This man within the beast it seems to indicate rules only 3 and a half yrs, rules only 42 mos.(Rev.13) this is not the seven years like that of the antichrist. Chapters (17-18 of Rev.) are connected happenings but are speaking about more than one subject matter and more than one geographical location. Please be cautious about using words such as absured. This is far from being Christlike and I have said nothing offensive against you or our Lord. I do not always agree with you but would never seek to offend you or your opinion. I believe first century man would have grasp my meaning because they would have correctly heard my words, thank-you.

  13. John V,

    No hard feelings friend. It’s a passionate subject and therefore ofttimes subject to passion. Please do not misunderstand me when I said, “Chapters 17 and 18 are written back to back and meant to be understood as congruous entities. To imply otherwise is to say that Holy Spirit will change subjects without changing words, this in my opinion is absurd.” I was not saying that you are absurd, I was saying that in my opinion the idea of Holy Spirit changing subjects while still using the same word is absurd. By absurd, I meant a flawed hermeneutic is being used. The statement wasn’t meant to offend only to emphasize the point of continuity in scripture.

    To me, Babylon in chapter 17 is the same as 18 with a different aspect highlighted. Chapter 17 is emphasizing the “religious” aspect of the system, whilst 18 is the “economic” system, and the scarlet beast of 17 is the “political”. It is by these 3 systems that the beast will operate in the authority received over every tribe tongue and nation for the duration of 42 months.

    We know that “he” in Daniel 9:27 makes a covenant with Israel. It is my belief that this covenant entails a world-wide system of false “peace and safety” (1 Thess 5:3), Isaiah calls it a covenant with death (Is. 28:15). Both Ezekiel and Daniel speak of Antichrist using deception through false peace to seize power in Israel in the last days. Part of this treaty is allowing Jews to rebuild a 3rd temple and re-institute the Mosaic sacrificial system. This temple is the location of both the ministry of the Antichrist and the 2 witnesses. (see Dan 9:27, Mt. 24:15, 2 Thess 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2)

    Eze 38:14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it?
    Eze 38:15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army.

    Dan 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.

    Dan 11:23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people.
    Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province

    John V, I misunderstood this – “Fourthly, I do not believe that (Rev. 13) has any reference to the antichrist or to an individual at all. I believe (Rev.13) speaks of a system and its administrations from which the antichrist shall arise but the beast is not that antichrist…” as meaning you didn’t see a future man called Antichrist. Now I see you see the eighth head of the beast being antichrist, but not the beast as a whole correct?

    You say that Russia is the bear of Daniel 7, what then is the Lion, Leopard, and terrible beast?

  14. man I stink at html…

  15. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    Thank-you for your kind explanation of what you meant by absurd. I’m sorry though, I cannot agree with your explanation of (Rev.17-18). I have heard and read these same arguments as far back as when Hal Lindsey first sought to convince Christians that John wrote his Revelation experience from his perspective viewpoint of Roman times. John recorded his experiences within the spiritual realm of his inner experiences, not the physical aspect or present surroundings of his life or happenings. This is the reason (Hal Lindsey’s statements) cause many to associate Roman emperors with the heads on the beast (Rev.13,17). Nevertheless, I believe, God’s Word was seeking to reveal to us through John’s Prophecies that these words concerned the latter and end days not the last days and those times of Roman influence.

    Isaac, you have the beast and that Babylon (woman) of Rev.17 and 18 all working together as a three way system (religious, economical and political) all operating together. Yet, it appears the beast with the ten (Rev.17:17) turns on its own source of power and seeks the destruction of Babylon (its own religious, and economical power), seems strange indeed. What does not seem strange; is that woman on the back of that beast is seeking to somewhat contol the activities that that beast desires to inflict upon the rest of the nations and peoples. I also believe that that same women is the one depicted in (Rev.12) and (1 Thess.5:3), and yet that desolation of that woman (Rev.17:16) will be as the travail of a woman with child. To make it clear, I believe that that woman represents the United States of America, and the Beast is Russia. Now that we (americans) believe communism is dead we believe peace and safety will be our final result (1 Thess.5:3). Many of those who sleep in the night will fail to see the dawning of another bright day because they cannot see this meaning. They are as blind drunkards, they see Israel, not another nation, another truth, yet, it is as a lie (2 Thess.2:11)!

    No! I do not see that eighth as the antichrist. Men are looking to soon for that antichrist to appear. first other events must come in their own place. Now that the time is at hand I believe the picture is clear. I believe this man to be Vladimir Putin. Even at this present moment he as Prime Minister holds the power over his puppet Medvedev, and over all of Russia’s Military arsenal. I believe he is the eighth for he is of the seven (Yeltsin) who personally placed him in the position to procure that office; he is of the seven (Rev.17:11).

    I do not reject the idea of the antichrist. I clearly see him throughout God’s Word. His name is Wicked (2 Thess.2:8). Nevertheless, I do not necessarily believe that the AC is the son of perdition (2 Thess.2:3). I do not believe (V.3) and (V.8) are speaking about the same person. I believe the man of (V.3) must be taken out of the way (V.7) before the man of (V.8) can appear. I believe the man of (V.3) is the same one called the eighth in (Rev.17:11). I further believe that the desolation of the woman is not the beginning of the seven yr. tribulation period but the 3 and one half yrs. (42mos.)(Rev.13:5) of Jacob’s Trouble; the time of the Lord’s Wrath (1 Thess.5:2)(Joel.2:31)(Rev.6:17). For I believe Chapter 6 of Rev. reads backwards. So (V.17) of (Rev. 6) is not making a statement but asking a question and is the start of the 6 seals. Then after those days (Jacob’s Trouble) the bride shall be made ready and spotless and wrinkled free. For washing away takes the spots and the heat and furnace of affliction removes the wrinkles. Then Jesus the Christ comes for a spotless Bride. Then afterwards comes forth the seven yrs of tribulation, but the two witnesses comes in the midst of the seven yrs for they must take part in the marriage supper of the lamb, the first 3 and one half yrs of the tribulations. So the time of the Lord’s Wrath (Jacob’s Trouble) is (42 mos), then the rapture, then the times of tribulations (7 yrs). The catching up of the man child’s placement is not at the beginning of the woman’s travail but at the end of the (42 mos.) after that the bride is spotless free through its cleansing. But many must remain of the woman after the rapture for then is the coming forth of many to be conquered by that rider (Rev.6:2;12:5;14:14) Dan7:13)) and many lost shall then be saved.
    I’m only speaking in general terms here for lack of time or detail.

    I’m not disputing the interpreted meaning of (Dan.7:1-7). I believe they give an accurate description of past kingdoms of worldly powers. However, I believe if we set out to interpret God’s understanding of certain meanings we may be his laughing game today. For we are forewarned that his ways are not ours and his thoughts are not the thoughts of men. God is not limited in the interpretation of only one meaning in his word for one time. Yet, there are many meanings for many different times. For God speaks not from time but from eternity. Therefore, a verse(s) can and often has more than one meaning. Any kingdom is of God’s command and its ending by that same voice. This is the reason Enoch and his purpose is not understood. Enoch is not one Enoch for his time but one Enoch of many times. For God has often sent him forth as a guide, even in days of dry places. So the meaning of prophecy holds the same purpose to guide us to truths. For the kingdom is made up of faithful children who are needy and meek and sorrowful in heart. Here is where the secrets of mysteries are hidden. Not in the intellectual prowess of men or hidden codes of intellectual persuasions. For children play in assurance, while adults trouble themselves in reasonings.

    The four beast of (Dan.7:3-8) comes up from the sea (people). The first beast a lion is symbolic of the makeup of the English/British, Empire, people. The eagle’s wings reveals a transformation from an English empire, nation, to an American nation. The plucking of the wings and the lifting from the earth reveals it was completly defeated and the lifting up from the earth shows the people will be scattered. However, it was made to stand upon its feet, symbolizes that it will be a nation gathered together and was given a man’s heart. A very good thing for it was no longer a beast!

    The second beast is symbolic of a bear. This beast is revealed for it was the second beast who caused the fall of the first. The bear is symbolic of Russia and the raising upon its side reveals that it does not come forward to attack, neither from its backside does it advance, but the side of the eagle lion is to the bear’s north. Its three ribs reveals the time in yrs. 3 and one half yrs. (42mos) (Rev.13:5). Russia occupies the land they conquered. The teeth is symbolic of a harsh and forceful rulership. They use great (nuclear) force, for they devoured much flesh. However, this is long before the antichrist appears (Dan.7:7). This beast must be taken out of the way before that Wicked AC can be revealed.

    The leopard is symbolic of China. For like the beast before it, it attacked the first beast. So shall the third beast attack the second (the bear). The leopard is symbolic for its speed. For it shall pounce quickly upon its foe for there is no distance between their borders. Its four heads symbolizes the four small stars against the big star upon its flag. In the (wind) the other side of the flag and its four small stars is symbolic of the four (wings). Dominion was given to it, even the world power of its dominion (communism)!

    The final kingdom is that of the antichrist and the visions of it is at night for it will be of a (night visions) dark mysteries hidden until its revealing. Therefore, men who think they see it see not the correct vision.

    Again these are my own interpretations. Nothing that I have read, copied, imagined or heard from men. I only have one source and that is prayerful guidance. I learned this many decades ago after the Lord informed me; “That he could not be manipulated by the persuasions of a fleshly mind”. So I stopped that.

  16. John V,

    I don’t believe what Hal Lindsey taught about the 7 heads being Roman emperors. Aside from much of his prophetic interpretation I do appreciate, and I’m sure you would agree, the awareness he raised during his era concerning the end times. I am not a traditional dispensationalist by any means. I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture or dispensations in the classic understanding. I believe that most of biblical prophecy is still future in its complete fulfillment.

    I say this in kindness – are you not doing much of the same things that Hal Lindsay was doing? In that you’re attributing prophetic scripture to current events with a dogmatic disposition. Examples of this would be when you’ve said Vladmir Putin is the Antichrist, Communism is the beast, America is the Babylonian Harlot etc. It seems you believe others to be going out on precarious limb with their interpretation of eschatological symbols, yet you are doing much the same. I would ask what happens if this doesn’t come to pass? While much of what Lindsey wrote was obviously wrong, there was much that was right. It seems to me the place where he went wrong was forcing current events into prophecy rather than letting the biblical signs foretold by Jesus, Paul, and John alert believers to the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy.

    Here’s my short approach to the woman of Revelation 17. I believe the woman is both a religious and economic system.

    She is religious because of her name Babylon, the mother of Harlots. She is economic because of her wealthy appearance and lucrative harlotries. I see a dual fall prophesied for her. During the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation a wealthy world wide religious network emerges that will persecute religions with staunch beliefs (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc). This world religion will seek to embody ‘all’ religions in a false unity, much like the tower of Babel did. The purpose of this false religion is to ‘dull’ the religious/moral standards of Christians and the like to accept wholehearted allegiance to Antichrist. The message that Jesus is the ONLY way of salvation will not be popular and will be met with violent resistance. This is why in her [Babylon] was found the blood of the saints and the prophets (18:24). This verse shows that Babylon cannot exclusively be America, though America can be a part of the Babylonian system. America has not shed the blood of the saints, prophets, and ALL those were slain in the earth. This religious network is destroyed at the onset of the Great Tribulation by the Antichrist’s ten kings to make way for the enforced Antichrist religion. This is her first fall. (see Is. 21: 9, Rev. 14:8, Rev. 18:2 to see the prophecy of the dual fall of Babylon – fallen, fallen).

    Secondly, the Babylonian Harlot is an economic system. This could include world banking, world currency, language etc. The details of the power of this system are depicted during her second fall in Revelation 18. This system will continue throughout the Great Tribulation and give Antichrist the economic funding for his ambitious military campaigns. She [Babylon] is then destroyed in the final plague – the seventh bowl. The seventh bowl plague is what the merchants and great men of the earth witness and mourn with tears.

    So, you have the religious network destroyed 3 1/2 years into the tribulation, and then you have the final destruction of the economic network destroyed 3 1/2 years after that – the end of the GT.

    Hope that all makes sense…

    One other thing that I find interesting in your view is that you keep stating that you didn’t receive your revelation from men, which you seem to find strengthens the argument of your interpretation. I find this odd, because if I believe you, wouldn’t I be believing a man?

    Blessings,

    Isaac

  17. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    Thank-you for your detailed comments. I realize how busy you must be and to take the extensive time of such a long reply humbles me. Again, thank-you!
    I hope you did not misunderstand my stance on the teachings of men, prophetic or otherwise. I have gained much over the years from the teachings and guidance of others, both older and younger. We are never too old to gain added knowledge and in my case it is a very simple process for I lack so in that department. However, I believe that some revelations that have been revealed to my understanding has not been taught to me by the teachings of flesh. If this were not so, I would be in full agreement with many others even as is the case with you. you must have disagreements with others who in part agree with you. Is this by revelation or the teachings of others, that disagreements appear? If you never receive revelations then never is a new point presented, for all points otherwise are and have been discussed. So, yes, I do sometimes receive revelations. If I would say otherwise I would be untruthful. I do not state this as a strange thing. I know of many who have shared with me revelations that the Holy Spirit has revealed to them that are Scriptually accurate and refreshing. This is but one of the many offices of God the Holy Spirit and a cherished one by many Chritians.
    Isaac, In my concept of Babylon and that woman, I would have the religious and the economic agenda of this world destroyed within the first 3 1/2 year period (Jacob’s Trouble) before the start of the 7 years of the tribulation times. However, I do not see that woman (Babylon) in the same aspect as you. However, at the same time I believe that it is going to take the destuction of the world’s most powerful benefactor (the United States, world power, symbolic of Babylon). Thus, eventually ushering the whole world into that devastating economical, religious, political and miltary situation that the imagination could ever ponder displayed in the writings of the book of Revelation. These events however, will not adversely affect that one (antichrist) who shall take on the chaos of that challenge. His kingdom and his position shall prosper. The rich and powerful always gain, the oil and the wine remain flowing even in times of death. I do not believe dogmatism is adverse to correct teaching. That is if it is through the persuasion of sincere and gentle souls. Jesus and Paul, I believe were examples of this form of persuasion and not always gingerly did they present their views. The danger of dogma is if the truth of the statement is not evident through word or event. This makes it much more difficult for Christians for our stance often is based more on faith and interpretation than evidence. So we must speak what we believe or have been shown and allow the Spirit of that hidden God to touch the minds of mortals, to receive that which was before hidden. I agree, I’m not saying Hal Lindsey has not been beneficial toward the awarness of the end day concept. As a matter of fact when his book first appeared I read it several times and continued to do so over the course of time. I pray I never seek to hinder anyone who professes my Lord. Nevertheless, never allow me to blindly agree with those teachings that seem contrary to the concept of the teachings of God’s Word.
    Isaac, I believe all eschatological teahings places all that teach such, in a precarious situation. This is the order of that certain business, this the reason for the warning. (James.3) My Brethren, be not many masters (teachers) knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
    Please do not add words that I did not write. Not once did I claim that Putin was, will be, could be, shall be or might be, the antichrist. If I believed this, that Putin or even more so that (Rev.13) is the revealing of the antichrist I would be in agreement with most of the majority of believers. Thus, I would not appear so foolish in the eyes of most. If these events of (Rev.17 and Ezek.38) fails to come forth within the next 3 years I will humbly accept your viewpoint and acknowledge my total lack of discernment for God’s holy Word. However, If it does appear in that manner and you were wrong I pray you and all who read our statements are prepared to meet their maker, for the death of a multiude will be reavealed by its stench. I would add, I believe, I gave myself an abundance of time leverage.

    Isaac, This is exactly what that Babylon represents; a coalition of the same system that fights against the will of God. You may call America by any name you wish: land of the free, home of the brave, a place where religion is the acknowledged position of the land. Please do not misconstrue my following explanations. I love this country and my fellow Americans. I served it proudly in its time of war. I believe it is the greatest example of the best of nations. nevertheless, as much as God loves us as his creatures (and all peoples of the world) in God’s eyes we are of the World and its corrupt, Satan controlled, manipulative, sin-ridden connivers, whose greatest asset of protection is to hide behind some form of religion. A form of religion of appearance but the denying of the power thereof. We see America through the eyes of a lie but God sees America through his eyes and Word. The god OF THIS WORLD SYSTEM and (OUR NATION) IS SATAN! Although through Christ America has been favored by God to be used as an instrument for his glory. Yet, in God’s eyes we are no better than the evil systems we claim to stand against. We may even be far worse than others, for once we sought to serve and to be servants. Nevertheless, when America is destroyed the World will loss even the small freedoms in religion than they have now. Even common sense should reveal to us that it is going to take the elimination of the World Power and its protection, food supply, and its military prowess and puissance to set the course for the depiction of the woes of the seals and the appearance of that antichrist. Except a cataclysmic upset in the world economically, politically, militarilly, and its religious institutions, much of the book of Revelation makes little sense. Yes, I believe the religious system and most of its institutions and much of this nations populist stands on the brink of hypocrisy if not blasphemy in this nation. I have no trouble whatsoever of envisioning America as that Babylon and its city as that great city of trade with the whole earth (Rev.17;18).

    Blessings,

    JOHN

  18. isaacbennett says:

    John V,

    Greetings in Christ. My apologies for the delayed response, it’s been a busy week with lots of writing.

    Could you clarify this statement?

    “No! I do not see that eighth as the antichrist. Men are looking to soon for that antichrist to appear. first other events must come in their own place. Now that the time is at hand I believe the picture is clear. I believe this man to be Vladimir Putin.” – John V

    Babylon is also mentioned in the natural as the city which reigns over the kings of the earth. In your belief that America is Babylon, which American city does this city refer to?

  19. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    Sorry, I can see how you thought I associated the eighth with the antichrist. These are profound subjects and seeking to explain the many meanings are difficult in the conveying and projecting to others.

    Here is the meaning of my statement: “too soon for his (antichrist’s) appearance”.

    I believe the eighth (Rev.17: 11) is one connected with those previous seven rulers, kings (Rev.17: 10) of that system (communism). The eighth however is different in that he alone shall revive, heal, (Rev.13: 3 kjv) that system that died (deadly head wound)(Rev.13: 3), died, under the rulership of that seventh one. That is why it states (or the meaning is) when he (the seventh) cometh he must continue a SHORT SPACE (Rev.17: 10). Although Yeltsin (the seventh) ruled approx. 8 years as president of Russia; he however, UNDER THAT BEAST, system, communism, only ruled a few months (A SHORT SPACE). Remember, the whole context of the subject matter is centered around the BEAST, not just an individual. He (the eighth) is the spokesman (mouthpiece) for that beast (Rev.13: 5). The beast is a system (widespread) that engulfs other nations (China) the leopard, (Russia) the bear, and eventually and finally in the end it shall engulf (Europe) the lion, the final (mouthpiece), the antichrist (Rev.13: 2)(Dan.7: 3-8 kjv). However, if these interpretations are correct and I might add it goes against all conventional teachings. Then the head wound has nothing to do with an individual, as has been often taught. The antichrist rules for seven years not (42 mos.)(Rev.13: 5).I also believe that this (42 mos.)period differs from that spoken in (Dan.7: 25). For I believe one period demonstrates the beginning of a period, while the other time description examples another. One is the begiining of a ten and 1/2 yr period (Rev.11: 2) the other, the last 3 1/2 yr. period of the age (Rev.11: 3;12: 6). I believe that this eighth is that one who goes into perdition (Rev.17: 11) and is that son of perdition who is revealed and boast of himself in (2 Thess.2: 4 kjv)(Rev.11: 1-2). Yet, if we understand these writings correctly I believe the Word is stating in (2 Thess.2), now ye know WHAT (V.6)(the WHAT that is being spoken of, IS THAT, son of perdition (sop))(V.3). It is (He) (sop) that WITHHOLDETH, (HIM) (V.9) (that WICKED, antichrist)(V.8) who must be revealed in HIS TIME (V.6)(2 Thess.2:3-11). After the eighth, that son of perdition is taken out of the way (V.7)(42 mos.).

    In my opinion men are being taught a lie (2 Thess.2: 11). The time at the end of the time of (Jacob’s Trouble) (2 Thess.2) (V. 7), is the one (the son of perdition) in (V.6) who is withholding the revealing of; that Wicked (V.8) antichrist! THEN after that (sop) is taken out of the way (2 Thess.2: 7) (Dan.7: 6) that eighth, the bear, (Rev.11: 2) shall that WICKED be revealed (V.8); reign for SEVEN YEARS. So I believe a combination of 10 1/2 years is being revealed here, not just seven. A time of Jacob’s Trouble (42 mos.) and the Tribulation period (7 yrs.).

    Therefore, I believe this is one of the reasons interpreters of God’s Word cannot distinguish the time of the rapture of the Church. Some see it as in the midst of chaos that the body is raptured; others see it before the tribulation times. I believe, both groups are right in their concepts. Yet, they fail to see that the Day of the Wrath of the Lord must first come and remain for (42 mos. 3 1/2 yrs.). Then comes the cleansing of the bride in those days of trouble and protection. Then afterwards (42 mos.) is the spotless Bride made ready and raptured. Then is the beginning of the seven years of tribulations and the rule of that Wicked, antichrist!

    I Believe the city in and of that Babylon is the world power city of trade amongst all cities of the World.. NEW YORK CITY. I believe the reason they stand afar off (Rev.18: 10) is because of the radiation of its destruction. A day of sorrow from man’s prospective. Yet, a time of greed, corruption and pride in the eyes of God has come to an end. A system of the craft and instrument of that evil one. That destroyer, Whose system and objective is always the same and always connected; the thief who in all things comes to steal, and kill and destroy (John.10: 10)! I believe the dual fall of Babylon symbolizes both a city and the nation. For both lay within the same border. Therefore, encompassing the destruction of both.

    I believe the Word and dipiction in (Rev.12) is actually revealing the course of not only the tribulation period but is inclusive of the times of Jacob’s Trouble as well. Therefore, I believe (Rev.12) is encompassing the dipiction of the destruction of America. (Rev.12) The woman, nation (the only nation who conquers the moon). This chapter also reveals the times of troubles (42 mos.). Also the time of the Rapture. Also up to the near end of the tribulation period and the death of the two witnesses (the remnant of her seed, one witness, Jewish , commanmands of God, one gentile, testimony of Jesus Christ, but both witnesses of the Jewish blood lineage through faith, in the only Redeemer (Rev.12: 17).

    I hope that some of my explanations might make my own discernment of God’s Word more understandable.

    God Bless,

    JOHN

    DANNY

  20. John,

    Can you give me 1 other biblical reference where a city is named but it actually means another city?

    Isaac

  21. Dave says:

    The actual term “holy people” doesn’t appear directly in the NT although there may be allusions.

    “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; … Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

    The Greek word translated “nation” is ethnos, which is the root of the English word “ethnic” – pertaining to or characteristic of a people.

  22. Dave says:

    Can you give me 1 other biblical reference where a city is named but it actually means another city?

    Is this what you mean?

    “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” Revelation 11:8

  23. Not really what I mean. The verse you mentioned clearly states that “spiritually” Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt; meaning we are interpret Sodom and Egypt as symbolic ‘forms’ of Jerusalem. The verses that are being discussed involving Babylon do not state anything about a symbolic interpretation of their identities. Out of the 4 times Babylon the city is mentioned in Revelation (Rev. 16:19, 18:2, 10, 21), the text does not say (or hint) that Babylon should be understood as anything else other than Babylon – the city.

    To arbitrarily say that Babylon means ‘America’ or ‘New York’ is like saying that Jerusalem means ‘Damascus’ or ‘Jericho’. This not only is a false assumption, but negates the intended use of words. If we cannot understand prophetic scripture as ‘literal’ when clearly stated and ‘symbolic’ where clearly stated as symbolic (like your Rev. 11:8 example), then we have no hope of understanding Daniel, Revelation, or any prophetic passages for that matter.

  24. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac, David,

    The Supreme Deity has no obligation to us or any other entity to reveal a pattern of explanation. Neither, is he obligated to us or any other created existence for his reasoning or hope of comprehension. Therefore, he needs no first to reveal a second. If only once he reveals a city as something other than that meaning what is that to mindful men. Yet, if the revealing is of spiritual matters than the meaning fills its place. Therefore, spiritually a body may examble a city (Rev.21:2). Yet, in truth neither a body or a city is spoken of completely but the concept of a spiritual revelation!
    Isaac, you speak of the lack of hope in the understanding of prophecy if there exist no pattern of comprehension. This is precisely my point and contention. Prophecy in God’s Word is not to be understood but revealed by revelation and than discerned. If there was a hope of understanding through the minds eye; than those in understanding hidden scripture would not have crucified the revealed Word! So, yes, I believe Babylon means America. Not by the pattern of words but by the direction men follow and that Scripture has always revealed. For God chooses the small things to build up. Yet, Scripture reveals that Satan will always utilize the mighty men, nations, and people to tear down. No other nation in these days stands mightier than America. Although we are now descending we still possess great strength. Our Navy alone consist of more war ships than the first 19 naval power nations combined. America is revealed in Scripture; much in Revelation, but most in Isa, Jer, Ezek. I cannot prove any pattern. Truly our only strength of discerning such great mysteries must be invested in our prayerful trust and reliance of God’s care for our need to know.

  25. John,

    I understand your point. I believe that the Lord is kind enough to speak to man – yet, in ‘man’s terms’ rather than with bird calls. He doesn’t speak to you in Icelandic if you don’t understand Icelandic – nor to I. What many do with prophetic scripture is ignore the application of grammatical rules that help us understand our language – which is used to communicate thoughts/ideas. The reason they do this is to say that what is written isn’t what is meant – yet there are many examples throughout scripture where the meaning of the ‘symbol’ is given. You simply telling me that Babylon means America because God revealed that to you- while not showing comparison with scripture old or new doesn’t carry any kind of weight.

    Secondly, the issue of perspective comes into scope when you say things like: “No other nation in these days stands mightier than America.” America has only become a ‘super power’ arguably since WWI and WWII; and still has yet to have as much influence and real estate that the British empire had. Fifty years of supremacy isn’t enough in my book to put the chips with America for any kind of end-time war drama. If you look at history, nations see significant decline and are unable to sustain their military prowess when 2 key things occur 1) leaving the gold standard (which America did in 1973), and 2) acquiring debt. Reading any news headline concerning the economy would tell you that America isn’t going to be the ‘key player’ in the days to come.

    We must trust that what God intended to communicate through prophetic scripture (which is hope and confidence, not knowledge) He would do so in a way that all could come to understanding. The majority of believers throughout history are not educated and privileged, they are mostly illiterate and poor. I believe that our God would communicate in clear ways, not ignoring the rules of grammar/word meaning, so that these could understand the words of life, receive hope, and have confidence in Christ despite trail, tribulation and affliction.

  26. JOHN V!! says:

    Isaac,

    If we were going by your book I would agree with you, fifty years is a modicum amount of years as a world power, but we are not going by your book! As far as the slow in intellect and understanding they have their calling even as those of understanding have their needs and the intellect are a source unto themselves! Nevertheless, so as the many who are called, few are chosen, so many lack understanding or are illiterate and so they fail to clearly see. This is nothing more than a blessing for those who lack, but have in the same manner procured a great salvation in simple comprehension of Christ’s hidden revealing of himself.
    God has many forms of communications especially toward his children. He often does not follow the pattern of our grammar, our language, or our
    comprehension. (2 Sam.23:2kjv) The Spirit of the Lord spake by me and his word was in my tongue. (Job.42:3kjv)Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Grammar, language, or understanding meant nothing to those who sought to comprehend a tongue that speaks not the words of flesh but of the Spirit. For there are tongues of men and of angels, but all prophecy fails if love is not conveyed in the meaning.

    Isaac, think outside of mens teaching. Do not believe all that man has taught. The teachings of men brings forth a little silver and much dross but the Word of God therein brings forth much Gold and within the Spirit lies no dross. Jesus desires to reveal! Men desire to impress! Isaac,if you follow men you may be teaching the same souce of dross, for if you mimic the words of such teachings the silver has already been spent, only dross is left.
    Men teach that a wicked prince of Israel is a temporary substitute for the KING of Israel(Ezek.21:25). A prince cannot be a substitute for a King and a King must never relegate himself to the order of a prince! That wicked prince must stand down from his position by the wrath of God. then after three (overturn,overturn,overturn)years (Ezek.21:27) (Jacob’s trouble). Then The true prince (NOT THE KING) of Israel (whose right it is)(Ezek.21:27) shall appear, and gather the people together as the Word declares(Gen.49:10,Isa.49:5) and the God who possesses a shadow (James.1:17) (flesh)(Jesus is now flesh and bone) declares of that hidden man, that he is the true prince of Israel(Isa.49:2). This man is Shiloh! Regardless of what you have been taught or what you teach! Shiloh (Gen.49:10) and the Arrow (Isa.49:2) and the true prince of Israel (Ezek.21:25-27) are all the same man and that man differs from Judah, (Gen.49:10)the possesser of the scepter, the holder of the quiver(Isa.49:2), and the King of Israel and of Jacob (Isa.41:21)!AND THE ONY ONE OF THE TRINITY THAT CAN POSSESS A SHADOW! Shiloh, like Elijah, is the true friend of the bridegroom and it is he who must gather the people for that is one of the duties of the friend of the bridegroom. So though he rideth in on a horse of white and bringeth forth his crown (Ezek.21:27), and holdeth in his hand the bow to shoot himself forth, yet, none sees he is the Arrow (Isa.49:2) or understands the Prince to come (Rev.6:2)(Ezek.44:3).For he is hidden (Isa.49:2) so all have been taught differently by men and not by the alignment of the Word and the Spirit! So the dross runneth over, and that spirit of that man looked for and that friend, remains a mystery of when he comes.
    GOD BLESS.

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